namahatta.org - Congregational Development Ministry

... upon seeing a lengthy discussion about a topic that has been going on for ages. but i suspect that you didn't actually _read_ the comments posted here before lumping them in with so many that aren't even meant to understand each other's viewpoints.

you see plenty of that: people trying to show off their learning (or handling of the vedabase), attempting to brow-beat their opposition with a gazillion quotes, often taken out of context.

[Ghosh] This exact debate has been going on for over 10 years and nothing is ever resolved,

Accepting that there are significant differences, and that these differences do include significant numbers of devotees in each camp, then the question arises as to whether the differences can at all be reconciled. Considering SP's desire to try to reconcile differences via what he called "unity in diversity", then I believe the question deserves better than a disingenuous dismissal.

Gosh prabhu:

1. why not turn off whatever notification you have set up. :-) And let me know how you set it up, because I have to manually check an RSS feed to see when the comments have been updated.

2. Yes, people are interested and following it: see www.namahatta.org

3. It's not about convincing the other, it's about understanding our own positions and understanding the position of the other person.

You two should just get a room.

(that would be American slang indicating that what you are doing would be better done in private)

Day after day i keep getting notifications of you two and your endless debating. Do you really thing anyone besides yourselves is taking the time to follow this bickering?

Do either of you think that you will ever convince the other?

This exact debate has been going on for over 10 years and nothing is ever resolved, only the names of the debaters change, meanwhile the real world swirls past you like water around rocks in a river.

Thank you very much for your time in this discussion Krishna-kirti prabhu. I really value your association and our exchanges.

We may not see things exactly the same way, but we are on the same team. I believe that balancing out unhealthy excesses through respectful and personal dialog is the dynamic for unity in diversity, and, ever the hopeful one, after this exchange I feel there is hope for the wider ISKCON society that we are part of.

Let me investigate VOIP recording solutions, and we can see if we can't put out a podcast.

your servant,
Sita-pati das

This is my last post on this thread. I just have some other affairs I have to tend to (yes, I've got a life). I realize that there are many open topics that are crying for an answer, but it won't be possible to address these topics immediately. I regret that they may have to remain open.

In leaving this thread (not the site), I want to thank Sitapati Prabhu for the stimulating, dialectical discussion here. I think it represents a moving forward in a direction we're supposed to go, as painful as it may be to either of us.

That said, here are some of my summary observations:

... but I actually felt a bit of relief thinking that you might have---it would have at least been a fresh, un-Millsean angle to explore. (Or maybe it's because I find Mills to be "icky" :-)

I was quite enlivened to see your application of sankhya. That kind of approach, with reference to authority and with internal logical consistency should be the basis of both public and private discussion. More of it, please.

Nevertheless, It really is not so easy to distance one's self from Western conceptual frameworks. One might think he has when in actuallity he hasn't.

[constitution committee member] There will always be varied opinions as to how much accomodation with Western ideas is needed in order to allow Sri Nam Prabhu to capture the hearts of those enamored of those ideas.

[sitapati] OK, so is there a proposed dynamic for dealing with that? Artificially enforced conformity? Anarchy?

There will always be varied opinions as to how much accomodation with Western ideas is needed in order to allow Sri Nam Prabhu to capture the hearts of those enamored of those ideas.

OK, so is there a proposed dynamic for dealing with that? Artificially enforced conformity? Anarchy?

In Vedic society my understanding is that local councils of brahmanas deal with changing time, place, and circumstances and keep things relevant and on track.

I didn't self-identify with Kant, OK? :-) I just mentioned that I was more attracted to what I thought they said he said at university than Mills. And my tutor told me that I had misunderstood it...

Mills, Kant, and Hobbes are all limited mundane views. I prefer Bhaktivinode Thakura.

Here is how I would frame it, because I'm not so into Western philosophical frameworks:

I think that we are having a discussion about the epistemology of dharma, or perhaps the ontology of dharma.

The first, most fundamental question is: is there an objective reality?

You may be right about progress in our discussion. At the very least, the dialectic can help us clarify what each of us believes on our own. And yes, my discussion with you has been good for me. it's helping me clarify my own thoughts on this matter. At the very least, this is a step that needs to be taken if there is any hope at applying the principle of "unity in diversity". Here's the diversity, so let's see if it can be unified. Thank you very much for providing the opportunity.

I'm not sure why you ask me if I am sure that Lord Rama never used force. I never said that. We were discussing that specific example.

I am sure that Lord Rama was qualified to know when force should be used. My point in relation to this was that in this situation he did not use force to insist that his wife follow dharma. Quite the opposite. This indicates that there is a higher purpose that dharma serves, rather than being an absolute in itself.

I think we are starting to get somewhere here. I am definitely enjoying the opportunity to discuss these topics with you and experience your angle of vision.

[krishna-kirti] My statements were about the normative view, so why would anyone suggest a normative view that is not the way things should be?

[sitapati] Herein lies the difference. It is not a "conservative"/"liberal", "traditionalist"/"progressive" dichotomy at all.

There is no difference in our normative view.

I still think there are important differences, beginning with our approaches.

However....

There is a generational difference in our perceptions and fears.

Qualification is necessary <--- there's my point right there.

Make sure you ensure that before you implement any kind of enforcement mechanisms. That's what I'm saying.

Don't go giving power to enforce things to people without setting the system up to make sure that "the criminals don't have access to the guns". Better we all go around unarmed and it's "every man for himself", than to have a "powerful" system set up which is being misused by unqualified persons.

Yes, it was on the basis of Dharma that Sita said she would accompany him, but he did not use this to force her to accompany him. If we should emulate him, then what does this say?

Are you sure that Lord Rama never used force? How about his dealings with Ravana? Or, for that matter, his banishment of Sita, for which many so-called "enlightened" today criticize Him. Even though she was faultless, He nevertheless banished Her in order to set an example for His citizens.

Lord Rama is known as maryada-purushottama, or the perfect man whom we should emulate.

Yes, it was on the basis of Dharma that Sita said she would accompany him, but he did not use this to force her to accompany him. If we should emulate him, then what does this say?

I agree with your point:

Qualification is necessary but not sufficient.

Qualification is necessary <--- there's my point right there.

Make sure you ensure that before you implement any kind of enforcement mechanisms. That's what I'm saying.

[Sitapati] Rama did not demand that Sita follow him.

She did it voluntarily because she loved him so much. Dharma was her excuse... :-)

Dharma is not the goal, but rather the pathway to love of God. And to reach the goal you eventually have to step off the path.

Lord Rama is known as maryada-purushottama, or the perfect man whom we should emulate. Lord Rama and Mother Sita acted according to religious principles, and their actions are for the sake of teaching us how to traverse the path of dharma.